I'd like to see some more fist fighting/throwing objects/hybrid items/attribute uses.

DeletedUser

So in the beginning, we have nothing but our fists, that count as melee weapons, which we use to duel against the very first quest opponent. As firearm duelists, the first objects used to fight are stones. Both melee and firearm duelists then go on to slingshots, jagged objects, blunt weapons, etc. After all this, we finally get to blades and guns. Soon, we are promised shootout weapons. That's all great. So.... What ever happened to the makeshift objects we used to use to defend ourselves? Why can't we still use them? Master them, even?

What I propose, is bringing back those good old days in a whole new light.

For melee users, we have ourselves a pair of ragged gloves. Now this is just a step up from a bare fist, but a step better nonetheless. As we go on, we get better equipment such as work gloves, padded work gloves, specialist work gloves, fancy cotton gloves, wristbands, wool mittens, brass knuckles, barbwire wraps, spiked gloves, cowboy gloves, high-class elbow gloves, mining gloves, construction gloves, wooden braces, metal plated gloves, gauntlets, etc. The list goes on.

For firearm users, we have ourselves a clay jug shard. Here, we just went from a blunt throwing object to a sharp one - give a concussion or take an eye out, your choice. As we progress, we get more useful weapons, like a handful of sand, tobacco spit, pile of broken glass, animal droppings, bigger rocks, coins, gems, nails, newspapers, boomerangs, frying pans, spittoons, horseshoes, wooden planks, darts, throwing knives, throwing axes, whips, spears, javelins, etc. The list goes on.



Now, using such things effectively are all very hard tasks to accomplish, wouldn't you say? So how is one going to start down the path of a fist-fighting cowpuncher or a spit-hocking gambler? Simple. You start only when you're damn good and ready, that's when! So when do you know when you're prepared? When your raw skills reach that certain level. What that level is, is up to how everybody sees fit; most certainly, it's going to be pretty high. But I'm not talking about looking fancy, I'm not talking about building a shack, I ain't saying ya gots ta go hide in a corner like some coward, or even that you have to thread a needle and make that friggen union flag yourself. Nah, not those little things, but what are they all a part of? What is that overall knowhow you need to be able to do them all at once? What is that thing.... What in the world.... AH!

Attributes. Plain and simple, a single point that gives you 5 skills points in a certain area. But what good are they by themselves? Not much, really. So how do we get a better use out of them? Well, we assign them to our new gloves and stones, that's how! But how do we assign them, and to what? Just put two and two together. Vigor, Toughness, Reflex, Dodging, Aim, Shooting, Tactics, Appearance. Any of these sound familiar? So how about the attributes to which they belong? That's right. Strength for our bodies, Dexterity for our hand-eye-coordination, Mobility to get the hell out of the way of that incoming blow, and Charisma to throw our opponent off-guard. These go both ways, not just for what you're using at the time. And just like that, you took those 8 dueling skills and made them 4. Congratulations.

But why just attributes? Sure, they aren't used for much else, but shouldn't anything else count? Nope. Health points are the universal part of both jobs and dueling, and that is the only skill that needs to be as such. But think about it. Guns? Swords? They're used for nothing but fighting; for killing. But our own two hands that hold those weapons are also used for so many more things. Fighting? Working? You get shot in the back while you're picking flowers, obviously not thinking you need to be ready for a war. You're clad in the best possible clothing for falling down a cliff and into a pile of cactus and coming out feeling like a million bucks - but you're in a ghost town, no one around for miles. Isn't there something more worth your while for passing the time? Those hands. Those hands of yours that do so much. Why not use them now? Wait wait wait - who ever said anything about changing your getup to do something different than what you were planning? Those hands. They can not only pick weeds, but they can hurt others as well. So what could you do to make the most out of them? Waaaait a minute. What was that thing we were just talking about? Didn't you have a pair of gloves, just for that sort of thing? Didn't you have a few darts that could be thrown to gamble at the local saloon? Why yes. Yes infact, you did. So if you're tearing an extremely rooted vegetable out of the ground, and your fist accidentally flies back and decks an assailant right in the face, or you're making bets on who can hit the bullseye, and one of your darts misses by a longshot and impales itself in some jerk's forehead at the bar, you can safely say that not only have you done your task with flying colors, you have also completed what you were originally hoping for.



So all of those multipurpose items, what makes them so great? Why are the requirements so high? Because you not only have a dueling weapon, but work clothes as well. These items have the stats to benefit both a duler AND a worker. These items have the stats to protect yourself while you're constructing a building. These items give you the ability to do a high-level job while you're waiting for that hour-long restriction on your opponent to disappear without worrying about his/her friends showing up at your doorstep. These items even the odds, and open up all new possibilities to explore the world around you. Of course, to promise equality, we'll need the help of some 'special abilities' - DON'T WHINE, IT HAD TO BE SAID SOONER OR LATER.

But you're balancing two things at once, with bare hands and makeshift weaponry; they can't be that useful, can they? Well, that is true. They depend entirely on your abilities as basically a naked human being, so they will not be the greatest in either the field of working or dueling, but they can still help, and having mastered them, you can call upon them quickly. You may lose more duels because of them, and you may not be able to scrape that labor point requirement, but because they are an extention of you, they make it so much easier. These are elite items, best used by higher levels, and should be a lot more expensive than a normal item. Most likely, those who pure stats will find themselves with the top item in that class; an item that will make others fail in comparison.


Now, to figure out the skills.

Remember, these items can only be equipped by attribute levels; "Requires 35 Strength" and whatnot. Dueling levels and character levels have nothing to do with this.

One way to calculate the dueling stats, is to compare them to character level and lower them. The level 35 melee and firearms are the regular Foil(22-44), and the regular Deringer(29-45).

Another way to calculate them, since puring a single attribute is pretty hard to do, is to compare and contrast the dueling stats to the skill points earned for each level. With melee weapons, puring strength and puring vigor completely, you would end up with 140 vigor at level 35, thus being able to wield any weapon up to that level, but doing quite a bit more damage in turn. So it would be best to pick a middle point, and calculate it depending on the nearest pre-existing weaponry at that time.

Now, if we were to make them available to all levels, then let's say up to level 10, these would be like any normal weapon. They'll increase along the way, and once you reach level 20, start showing noticible results from there. Level 50+? Weeeell, now we're talking elite. Not sure of many people who would spend all 99 character levels in a single attribute, but this idea makes the possibility very real.

Other than dueling stats, what about work stats? Most clothing already gives work stats, and only one or two normal weapons do the same, but in a very, VERY little amount. Once again, calculating either of the ways you would with weapons in a style for clothing, will come up with a reasonable number of skills points. If you pure, you get better stats. So a high level item in this class, would then be assumed to have overly generous amounts of extra skill points. Level 50+ attribute? You can expect skills such as 30+ trading, 68+ toughness, 50+ repairing, 80+ horseback riding, to be equipped to a pair of 50+ strength gloves. These are just random numbers, but if you've pured through 50 levels, I'd think you deserve at least that much.


So, the special abilities part? Not quite as far-fetched as it sounds. In fact, pretty simple if you think about it. Two things:

1. The town hall lowers the difficulty of constructing buildings, why not give that ability to an item? One of these two abilities would be to decrease the difficulty of a job, so you don't need as many labor points to start it. The higher the level of the item, the more of a bonus it gives to this ability. This effect will benefit duelers the most.

2. We've all seen ambushes, which is pretty much what the attacking side of a duel in this game always is, but it is always fair. But what about counters? Those who are fast enough to flip the table in their favor? This bonus will allow the defender one extra attack to the eight, making a total of nine. This extra attack will come into the duel first thing, before the next eight are calculated. Like a free hit. It is treated as having an unguarded stance, thus increasing the aim and damage of the blow. Or perhaps it could even have a single base damage, that hits 100% of the time for that first blow, and steadily increases as you get a better item in that class. This effect will benefit workers the most. Now they have some small chance of defending themselves.
 

DeletedUser

Heh, wow. I've surpassed 10,000 characters of text. Let's wrap this up.

If you're wondering what roles Mobility and Charisma play, they are strictly for defense and weakening purposes, the way Strength is to melee as Dexterity is to firearms. Charisma softens the force of a punch, Mobility allowing you to easily side-step a flying bucket. Get them high enough, and they will negate the abilities of weapons at lower levels. I would like to attach them to clothing, such as leather jackets and steel-toe boots, but I'd rather not get into that right now. All of the items in these attribute classes will also benefit and receive benefit from the attribute raising necklaces, such as the crosses and buffalos.


I want to inform you all NOW, that these are half-baked ideas, a good portion of it I'd rather not spend the time fine-tuning by myself. ALL OF THEM up for discussion, improvements, etc. I'd like to get this out there before I forget about it, and listen to what other have to say. Really, it truly does make my time with it easier when I have opinions hacking away at it until I'm left with what's really important.

So, discuss. I'm sorry for any spelling/grammatical errors; there's quite a bit there.

Thanks for reading this screaming wall of text. I appreciate it.
 
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DeletedUser

Can you by any chance sum up the idea and give me the short version? :blink:
 

DeletedUser

Can you by any chance sum up the idea and give me the short version? :blink:

*Sigh*

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but why can they no longer?

In short, bring back the ability to use our fists to fight, covering them with gloves or knuckles to produce a fist-fighting style. The same with objects that can be thrown, such as pebbles and granite, but upgrading what you can 'throw' to knives, coins, horseshoes, etc.

These weapons do not use character level or skills to determine their worth, only attributes. Attributes have no use, so I assigned them to these new weapons. Strength for melee, Dexterity for firearms, Mobility for defense, Charisma for weakening the other three attributes. I have not gone into detail about how to do this with clothing - only the weapon slot.

It is much harder to put every point on a single attribute, so those that do, gain benefits from it. These new weapons not only do damage, but they give more skills than normal weapons, and have special abilities allowing them to benefit dulers with jobs and workers with fighting to even the playing field. Duelists have lower difficulty by equipping these items, workers get an extra shot in before a fight.


Though this "summary" strongly *******izes the whole idea, I hope it is short enough for you to read. If not....

Supershortsummaryofshortness: "Make some epic new weapons, lolkthxbai"
 

DeletedUser

Haha it was short enough :D
I don't see why not to agree with this one :)
thumbs up I guess.
 

DeletedUser

It is much harder to put every point on a single attribute, so those that do, gain benefits from it.
Was okay until you mentioned that, because what would happen is that ******* A puts all points on one attribute and then ******* A becomes ****-god and will just rape and pillage all the other little people who 'get in their way' i.e. ******* A sees someone and attacks them regardless of anything else.
 

DeletedUser

Mister A will be hurting himself if that is all he wishes to use it for.

Think about it. 99 Levels? That is 99 points in a single attribute. You have basically made it impossible for yourself to a do a multitude of jobs unless you find some ultimate combination of the new weapons and other clothing. Now, that is another thing I would like to work with as well. Once you reach level 99, no matter how you set up your skills, I think you should be able to do any job you want.

In order to get any real use out of these items, you need high points in a single attribute. A level 99 player who evenly spread out his points between four attributes, would end up with level 25 in three attributes and 24 in the last. This is just above 20 - one of these new weapons at such a level is about the same as a normal weapon at that character level. If you are at level 99 with evenly spread attributes, you want something already made, like a Precise Buntline or Sharp Calvalry Saber. Because with Strength and Dexterity skills both at 25, you'd basically be holding the power of a Foil/Bowie Knife or a Deringer/Muzzleloader by equipping an attribute weapon. Who would want that? Even with those few extra work skills/abilities. Only those who would continue further past such points would be able to see great results.

But with every character level, you gain a dueling level. Especially if you're a duelist, that dueling level rises above your character level. The higher your dueling level, the less you get from dueling people lower than you. Nothing really changes in that aspect, because you'd need to duel those of your level to get the rewards, like normal duelists, and you can still be a bully of sorts to those under you to a certain point, once again like regular duelists. The point of these is not only to be able to defend yourself or attack with them, but also to use them for doing jobs when you're not fighting.

Those who put their points in only certain attributes or skills, find themselves lacking in others. This way, a worker who pures in strength, can stand some of a chance against a duelist who pures in dexterity. But we're not talking about the skills under attributes, we're talking about the attributes themselves. So those who travel in this new style benefit more from fighting others who do the same. Mobility and Charisma are the defensive roles. Someone who pures in Strength or Dexterity will find themselves not able to be the so called "****-god" against a high Mobility and Charisma. Against normal players who spread their attributes evenly, these new fighters will still have a slight upper hand for managing to get through the game with only a single attribute under their belts, however, they'll still be weakened by those two defensive attributes. If you were to then look at it in simple subtraction, a pure against an even player, you will see 25M+25C against 99S or 99D. 99-25+25=49. So now that that pure player is reduced to level 49 in his or her attribute of choice, you're looking at a player who has a weapon a bit stronger than that Precise Buntline or Sharp Calvalry Saber, but not too much that the odds of beating them are impossible. It would be like fighting someone a few levels above you.



Remember, this idea is still raw and can be worked out to what the majority would consider reasonable. I haven't made any examples for what stats one of these weapons would give. At the same time, these weapons can only be held by Strength and Dexterity. Like I stated before, I wish to attach Mobility and Charisma to clothing, with their own special abilities as well for dealing with the aggressive pures. In the end, in those last few levels up to 99, pures against pures will be the only real battles. Pures against even members or randomly spread attributes would be the same as dueling somebody on an even level, with just a slight upper hand.

To put it simply, there is no benefit to being a "****-god", and it would be rather impossible to do so anyway. With duels, everybody will find themselves on an even playing field. However, with work, nobody is on an even playing field. That is the real purpose of these items. Allow duelists to work and allow workers to defend themselves. That is basically what it boils down to. You could say(though I really don't feel this way myself) that the rest is just to make the game more exciting.
 

DeletedUser

Yesterday I spent about 20-30 mins trying to understand the whole point of this, since I generally respect every single opinion of yours.

Didn't get it, so I came back today and spent another 20 mins, trying to find some significant purpose of concentrating one Attribute and having extra item according to it. Frankly I still don't get it.

I mean this whole thing considers too many factors that effect balancing issues, especially duel issues. If we have to import those features you mentioned above, we have to re-arrange entire list of jobs out there and re-balance entire quests.

Let's compare MOB vs DEX. You pour down all your Attr. pts into MOB, and your oppenent poured down all into DEX. Both use ranged weapons. Other skill points in MOB or DEX being equal, their duel result should yeild about 50:50 in theory. But then there are other issues related to jobs. DEX duelers level up much faster than MOB duelers when they do jobs, thus making DEX duelers much better dueler later on. So in order to balance out the difference between MOB duelers and DEX duelers, gloves for MOB should be better than darts for DEX. But then gloves or darts for either DEX or MOB should also be equally good so that it'd be fair to everyone.

Same thing with other Attr. stats as well.

If we compare two lvl 60 users, one(A) with 15 STR 15 MOB 15 DEX 15 CHA and one(B) with 60 STR, player A may be able to do a lot more quests than player B but I'm sure player B will reach lvl 80 much faster then player A. That's because quests don't give you much. Spreading Attr. pts evenly has been proven to ruin the character much later on, and even if it helps clearing all the quests the player should suck at dueling.

I know a player in W1 whose goal is to clear all quests in his level, and as far as I know of, he has been, every single quests so far. He may be one of the high rankers, but I know what he had been through in order to do that by doing quests. You're supposed to sell everything you have, literally emptying your inventory, so that you can purchase one hat for this job and another clothing for that job, otherwise you don't get to do any decent jobs compared to your level, stopping you from catching up with other players with stats pourded into one Attr. points. Not to mention he is terrible at dueling.

Let's say there's a dart, really good one, that requires 20 STR and 20 MOB, and it's much better dart than the one that requires 40 STR. Then we have same balancing issues all over again, but this time it's just reversed.

Personally, don't get mad, those features you mentioned above so far requires just too many things to consider.

This is personal note, but you know what I think the biggest problem with this game is? This game is entirely for Trappers. All the top players, no matter which World, has started as Trappers and they put some Shooting when they're lvl 25. You put 1 Aim and 2 Shooting instead of 3 Shooting, and you're a lethal dueler when you're around lvl 35-40 and yet still able to do very nice jobs, which you have been doing much much earlier than other non-trapping players. Your bank account will never go empty because your jobs are so nicely packed with EXPs and $$$, and no one is gonna be willing to duel you cause your level is so much higher than other 'pure' duelers and your items will be much better. Yeah MOB players got a little better with all those new jobs, but they're nowhere near to be compared with DEX players so far. Trapper class is what's ruining this entire game.
 

DeletedUser

Well, they did just make all the hunting jobs harder(except coyotes). But I understand what you mean.

Now, as for the weapons, I never really thought about assigning more than one attribute to a single item. The original idea was that Strength(melee) and Dexterity(firearms) would be the only two offensive attributes, while Mobility and Charisma were the only two defensive. The gloves and darts were examples of Strength and Dexterity, but like I had stated earlier, I hadn't even gone into making anything for Mobility and Charisma, yet. The defensive attributes would be clothing, like hats, shirts, shoes, etc. The way things are segregated now, between weapons and clothing. Obviously since there is more room for clothing than weapons, there will be differences made to bonuses. Or you could segregate them even more, by giving hats and neckbands to Charisma and shirts and shoes to Mobility, and only to those attributes. The tactics and appearance skills in mind, though in a different style.

Either way, the average person is not a purer. It was my intention that an evenly spread player could fight on the same level as a purer, the way they would fight on the same level with those their own kind. Skills account for everything else. The purpose was to give benefits to purers while not leaving anyone at a disadvantage against them. Again, the special bonuses.



I'm sorry that you spent so much time trying to figure it out. Really, it sometimes takes a lot of detail to get a point across, and I'm not all that good with summarizing things. Perhaps "half-baked" was putting it lightly. I might need to make some visual examples/graphs if I can.

I was hoping that I could get an extra brain or two to help break it down or sort out what wasn't needed. I don't expect everybody to agree with an idea exactly 100%, that is why discussions are held to improve those ideas and get a reasonable result. Of course, I wasn't going to just shrug off a chunk of thoughts on you guys and expect it to be handled from there, either. It does need work, and perhaps I just have not cut it down as much as I thought I had. Fine-tuning aside, I do think it will make the game factors a bit more interesting.
 

DeletedUser2708

Fascinating stuff, Black Jack; makes me wonder why you waste your time and energy on me. ;) Also explains why you may have not put as much thought into that as into this topic.
 

DeletedUser

the summary of this as i see it is "make weapons that give better skill bonuses for doing jobs, but with less damage than the normal weapons at that level, and instead of making them have a level requirement, they have an attribute requirement" right? what will happen is one of two things. either A) the bonuses given will be additions to the skills in the attribute they have already built up, making it a "win more" item and not very useful, or B) the bonuses will NOT be associated with the attribute it requires, giving people a way to cheat their character into doing more jobs and having more abilities than they should. i like the IDEA of it, as i think attributes should be used for more than just skill bonuses, but the practice of it will just make this game even easier to complete, or harder to compete against certain character builds. when you lose the variety in characters, you lose the individuality and fun in the game.
 

DeletedUser

Well, that isn't entirely true. A pure player isn't able to do any job that requires none of the skills under the attribute of their choice. Take for instance, Hunting Beavers. Hiding and Setting Traps are the only two skills needed to work that job. This means Strength and Charisma purers have no chance of ever being able to do it.

These items MAY give bonuses under the same attribute they are assigned, but yes, it was my intent to assign other skills as well - outside of the attribute needed to use them. However, the bonuses assigned to each item are of course limited. The only way to get a larger bonus would be to increase the attribute points needed until you are able to get a higher level item. Basically, you level up, you get better items. Just as it's done now.

The trick is, to set a reasonable amount of bonus skills to each item. These items won't just allow you to do jobs you can't straight off the bat. They give a little at a time, allowing you to do lower-level jobs out of your area. Let's say, a level 20 purer in Strength could have a pair of gloves that give them the ability to stream fish or sell newspapers that originally only required a few skill points in the other three attribute fields. Nothing noticible until you get to a higher level. Eventually, you will reach level 99, and it won't really matter anymore, so that is why by the time someone reaches that level, they would have item(s) that allows them to do every possible job, or at least almost every possible job.

Puring for 99 levels would be a pretty hard task to complete, especially if the only jobs you had didn't give as much experience/cash/luck of finding items to go about your work like normal, and not being able to do the quests which give you such rewards. By that time you've basically finished, so why make it impossible to check off the last few things left to accomplish?
 

DeletedUser

This is probably really dumb and i misunderstand you but......couldn't the shaman just do that for you?
 

DeletedUser

i like this idea because then i wouldnt have to worry about having a top nocth weapon in order to win duels but instead i could be cheap and not a weapon only gloves and still win duels with my bare hands.:D
 

DeletedUser

This is probably really dumb and i misunderstand you but......couldn't the shaman just do that for you?

I think I'm also misunderstanding you, lol.

Skill points cannot be decreased past the level of the attribute. In order to decrease them further, you must decrease the attribute first.

It is true that with the shaman, you can decrease attribute points. However, when you hit level 99 in a single attribute, you've reached a dead end and can only go backwards - that costs a lot of money. $250 and counting with every point, will be tens of thousands of dollars by the time you're able to get your attribute points to a suitable amount to be able to do the things you couldn't before - but you originally wanted the character build you started out with, so then you have to go back again.

That is what I meant by impossible. By the time you are that level, the only thing left, really, are quests, and maybe a single product you'd like more than anything to decorate your profile with. If you've chosen to go up such a rocky path, don't you think it should allow you to get those one or two things out of the way without such hassle? A congratulations of sorts, in the form of bonus-giving items, for making it to that level by puring and keeping yourself from jobs that would have made getting to level 99 so much easier.
 
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