It's a Hotel... Not a Safe Haven

[DeletedUser]

The main issue with real place dueling is going to be timing. You want to queue 2 duels? OK, now you travel to the target's town, and no matter where the target is (travelling or not) the 1st duel happens in travel time + 10 minutes, and then the 2nd duel happens 10 minutes later.

With real place dueling, all this is going to be moot - 1st duel may happen in travel time + 10 minutes, then you've got to add another potential travel time on top of that, and repeat if necessary... So, when is the 2nd duel going to happen? You may think you know, but the 2nd target is probably on the move as well, and has probably moved to a second location from the original location you tried to duel him at.

How are you planning to do the tracking? Your first target may have moved to a second location while you're getting there, so that's not a problem if you go to the target's new location. But your second target may have moved to 2 new locations since you challenged him; which location do you go to first? Logic would dictate it's to the location he first moved to after you challenged him, not his current one. That would mean the database has to store location history.

What happens if the target is still in transit when you arrive at the duel location? You don't know where he's gone until he arrives.

Your suggestion would mean that it's theoretically possible for a dueler to arrive at a duel location before the target if the dueler's mount is fast enough.

No, real place dueling is fine if:

1. If the target is currently traveling, he can't be challenged.

2. Duels end if the target has moved on from when you challenge. The challenger must re-challenge the target at his new location.

3. You can't challenge at the same location twice in a row; this would avoid duelers camping locations (would help with the OP's problem of duelers camping their opponent's hotel).

In other words, you've got to search the map until you find the target again to re-challenge him.

In many ways, I think the suggestion of real place dueling is going to mean less duels not more because of the extra traveling involved.

 

[DeletedUser]

With real place dueling, all this is going to be moot - 1st duel may happen in travel time + 10 minutes, then you've got to add another potential travel time on top of that, and repeat if necessary... So, when is the 2nd duel going to happen? You may think you know, but the 2nd target is probably on the move as well, and has probably moved to a second location from the original location you tried to duel him at.

"Duelers are ideal for very active players that like the conflict." That means you need to adapt to changes, not just do it like workers.

How are you planning to do the tracking?

If you queue more duels, then after one is done, you get the actual location of your second target and hunt him (something like you know his last known location from rumors and you are going to investigate).

What happens if the target is still in transit when you arrive at the duel location? You don't know where he's gone until he arrives.

You will duel him like he is at that location because he can cancel the transit anytime and return instantly at that position.

Your suggestion would mean that it's theoretically possible for a dueler to arrive at a duel location before the target if the dueler's mount is fast enough.

No

If the target is currently traveling, he can't be challenged.

Actualy he can.

Duel ends if the target has moved on from when you challenge. The challenger must re-challenge the target at his new location.

No the tracking continues, you just receive a message that you are following your target further so you can cancel the hunt.

You can't challenge at the same location twice in a row; this would avoid duelers camping locations

This can be a little problem but remember that you are not duelable more than once in a hour. And if they will camp there, then nobody will go there for work. Still you can send your duelers to hunt them down.

In other words, you've got to search the map until you find the target again to re-challenge him.

No it'll be automatic.

 

[DeletedUser]

If this change will be implemented, then the guard job would be very helpful but it needs to be adjusted too. Like you can choose to work at that place or guard it. This way you will work as a watch in the camp site for your workers. This can give additional strategies like raiding enemy's working site ...

 

[DeletedUser]

Having followed this, Sammie has raised some good points but basically Puli has answered them all.
If it clarifies the thinking......There is no such thing as travelling on this game. One is either in one position or another to which one is instantly transported. 'Travelling time' is, in effect, the time one has to wait before being instantly transported to another location.

I think the only real point of potential dispute here will be the ability of duellers to 'camp' at a given location. Certainly they WILL be able to do so. However there are very much improved counter-strategies available to those who have complained about the lack of realistic redress to duellers 'camping' in their towns.

So, please correct me if i am wrong, but it seems that the debate is over and this is a proposal ready for submission along the lines Puli is proposing.

 

[DeletedUser]

Forgive me, but if you travel somewhere 4 hours away and cancel the trip 2 hours in, you're not half way there? Not that I've tried it - but I seem to remember some posts about it a while back (I'll do a search).

 

[DeletedUser]

No you are just where you started out from.

 

[DeletedUser]

simple fix for hotel exploit

The original problem brought up in this thread is an Exploit, an unintended negative consequence of the rules system.

Simple Fix: For the attacker, put a lockout timer (aka cool-down) on hotel use after a duel. For 1 (or 5 or whatever) minutes after a duel the attacker simply cannot enter any hotel. Easy to code and implement.

Something similar could be done for town disbanding/rejoining too if that becomes a problem.

Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, killers would actually have to hmy:*GASP!*hmy: accept the consequences of their actions.

 

[DeletedUser]

No you are just where you started out from.

Right and wrong. I've just tried it - I was over 2:45 minutes away from my next job. Queued it, then canceled it with less than a minute of travel time left. The map showed at my starting position. I logged out; then logged in again. The map still showed me at my starting position. I re-queued my job, and I started traveling from where I canceled travel - i.e. with under a minute to go.

I'll try it again overnight - I actually shut my machine down overnight.

 

[DeletedUser1105]

I think that was a coincidental glitch sammie, because I've never been able to do that.

I think real place duelling needs it's own thread, with a summary and discussion. This thread is too long for people to read and debate the idea.

 

[DeletedUser]

i think there should be a 2-5 min delay before someone can go to sleep directly after a duel

i believe that this would be a fair resolution to the problem

 

[DeletedUser]

Duels don`t concern me so this thread is just interesting reading but one thing that came up is duelers "camping" hot job spots. I dont think that will really be that big of a problem because once a dueler is known as a camper he becomes the target for other duelers who know where he is and can target him. As the majority of duelers are fair in their methods I dont feel this would be particularly detrimental to the game.

As I said duelling does`nt bother me so I am not entirely sure of the mechanics therefore I cannot dispute any statements on travelling times etc but as any class can duel I dont see why this can`t help in the hotel problem because even campers have to leave the hotel sometime and earn proper money.

I may be wrong but this seems to answer a perceived problem with location duelling and hotel campers getting away with it.

 

[DeletedUser]

i think there should be a 2-5 min delay before someone can go to sleep directly after a duel

i believe that this would be a fair resolution to the problem

why?
it may take 20min or 20 hours to travel to their own hotel if they want to sleep, if they dont town camp

 

[DeletedUser]

You do realize that the hotel IS a safe haven for those wanting to escape being dueled right? That means workers and low level characters too. If my town notices a stranger in our town we send out an alert and get to the hotel for our own protection and duelers go ahead and relocate to the strangers town just in case.

 

[DeletedUser]

Hotels should be safe havens as they always have been but the problem is camping. If you duel, sleep, wake up, duel, sleep, wake up you can make money and you cannot be hit. If you ask me the tactic is cowardly and disruptive but it works. If there is no fix for this more and more duelers will be adopting this tactic and dueling will be reduced to this cowardly game play.

The current war that my town is in has found players moving to towns 11 hours away and practicing this hit and sleep tactic in our town. I got sick of it and trekked 11 hours away and KO'd everyone I could but that wont fix the problem. The guy is still in our town and still asleep. There is no possible way anyone can hit him and he is simply a nuisance.

It is my opinion that to keep the game dynamic and fun there needs to be a fix. The system does not have to be sophisticated. Something very simple will do. You cant sleep for 30 minutes after you duel. That seems reasonable to me. The talk of bounties and other more complex systems, while interesting, is not helping the current situation and the reason this thread was created.

 

[DeletedUser]

But if a dueler sticks around in a town dueling and sleeping, then you just send your fighters to that dueler's town to duel their people. When they get tired of that, and that happens much faster than the dueler gets tired of his/her tactics, your town diplomat negotiates with the other town's diplomat about having that dueler called back. If they don't want to do that, your town's fighters just keep on dueling everything that moves there, and eventually that camping dueler will get kicked out of his/her town because they don't want to be dueled all the time by your fighters. The tactics are the same, your fighters duck in and out of their town's hotel. That's how the game is being played.

Another tactic against a camping dueler is to get yourself knocked out, then there's nothing for 48 hours that dueler will get for his/her time. Just strip yourself naked and wait, you will get knocked out in a couple of duels and then you can go out and earn the big cash for yourself and your town. The only thing that's "hurt" is the stats in your Mortician and so what?

Now come on! Dueling is a part of this game, if you're not a dueler you hopefully have fighters to defend you using the same methods as the attacking fighters. You also duck yourself into your hotel when a fighter is standing in your town, right?!

 

[DeletedUser]

Naaa...this is what makes the whole thing pretty hilarious...

[spoil]

I agree, though think it should be longer, like 24 hours. You just can't walk into town shoot up the mayor (or anyone else) and walk into a hotel and expect everyone else to just wait outside.

It gets sillier when you take the fact that once in the hotel they can shoot someone and go right back to bed before you can respond. That posse would knock down that door and strink you up faster than you can say Yippie-kiyae-etc...

[/spoil]

[spoil]

I like some of the ideas here and would like this thread to be constructive. It's clear some people don't quite understand the problem. This is not a hadicap dueler thread, quite the opposite. The issue here is that people can duel your town members, while they themselves can never be attacked because by queing up sleep immidiately after a duel, when you go to attack them you are told they are well protected in your own hotel... This means duellers cannot defend their own town members which is an obvious exploit and a way to circumvent a major part of the game. It is something that needs to be addressed in some fasion.

[/spoil]

[spoil]

The issue that we're seeing from my experience is that for example, we are decimating a town but it's leadership is ******ed so they keep rushing guys over to us then having them sleep, wake up attack and go back to sleep for a few minutes as was stated. they get nothing not experience or money from the attacks.
it actually hurts the game dynamic, there's only so much a weaker town is going to endure before people stop playing you see that on every server. As a BUSINESS the west should want to fix all things that mess with imbalance or loopholes and perfect it's dueling. So that people are more interested in paying to play.

I have a better idea. No sleeping in hotels where you have attacked someone. Give the town founder the ability to ban trouble makers from his hotel. What town of people would let a man who murdered one of their town members sleep in their hotel?

The reason to give the founder that ability is that in case a truce is made or an alliance.

[/spoil]

[spoil]

Why not an option to camp someone sleeping in a hotel?

"Big John is sleeping right now and could be sleeping up to 8 hours. Do you want to wait until he wakes up?"

In other words queue up a duel for someone who's in the hotel to shoot them as soon as they wake up, whenever that is. Even if they have two sleeps queued in a row it would duel them in between.

[/spoil]

Al Phaque & Sarzina are not talking about your typical random camper/hider scenario...far from it. They're referring to a town belonging to the gents that I've quoted above, from earlier in this very thread.

It's far from a 'poor me waaa there's duelers in our town and fighting' situation. They laid into an ally of ours, and we went and paid them a visit. After threatening us with all their 'many, many towns' (which, btw, most of those towns are full of banned players, and we're still waiting for the rest of them to show up weeks later. lol) and telling us that we had 'no idea what we were getting into' and how we would be wise to 'leave it be'...well, long story short, we've been knocking them silly for a while now.

So, it's not a matter that can be resolved by simple diplomacy...as you see, it's this towns leaders themselves who perpetuate the silliness. A handful of them sit in our hotels and strike out at mostly those they know they can handily defeat (lower level fighters, adventurers, etc), while they avoid our real fighters like the plague.

Meanwhile, we ko every other town member they have, over and over...and we occasionally catch the hiders and send them home as well, but it's more like ankle-biting ratdogs that fail to take the hint at this point. Most of our fighters stand right out in the open, eager for a good fight because...hey, that's what we're here for is the fight! But they choose to play this silly little game which they had so openly spoken out against, rather than take the challenge that is before them head on, like the fighters they had claimed to be in the first place.

Just... :nowink: :laugh:

 

[DeletedUser]

Naaa...this is what makes the whole thing pretty hilarious...

Actually, the *real* hilarity behind this thread is that it was resurrected from the dead in the midst of several other threads talking about the same thing; Hotel use when camping. Then you come along and try to gloat about the real reason individual members are complaining, meanwhile the dates they made those posts were before the world you play in even existed. :laugh: (This topic was created when there were only W1 & W2 on .net)

Alas, aside from that my views have changed greatly since I first made this thread and several other threads have come and gone expressing pretty much the same feeling; that the current system is flawed and is not working as was intended. Just like I'm sure the dev's didn't expect towns to be build without hotels just to combat this tactic. It can be countered it's just very hard to do.

 

[DeletedUser]

15 Minute Cooldown to Enter Hotels after a Duel in Development Discussions